Re-adjusted 1898 stats up for review

[scorpion]

The anatolian railway is the only German involved railway I'm aware of before the baghdad one(if you're aware of others, let me know). Anatolia is presently untouched by the war, so shouldn't I at least be getting part of the bonus, rather than 0?

edit: scratch that, i see its due to instability in the OE.

[Huojin]

Any other questions/queries/suggestions? Or can we tell Dr. MoO PhD to implement these stats?

[scorpion]

I can live with these. I'd get conformation from the other players, either in this thread or by talking to them before implementing though so everyone is on the same page.

[Huojin]

That's what would be ideal. Hopefully we keep bumping this thread enough and people will take note and chime in.

[Coin]

My main point to raise might be that China's income should be more limited by warlords? In terms of economic base I've no issue, but considering the state of China on the map, reflecting the chaotic situation on the ground might be better within the stats, rather than such a high income making them an irrelevance. Still, I'd imagine there was a reasoning behind it, and would allow Gesar to make his case. They're also being blockaded by the Japs, but idk if that's a leftover mistake.

Also my deficit payment is back to being too high The Tsar needs his 5c!

I also happen to agree with Scorp that the Turkish railway seems a bit small to be reflected in the stats; but if Germany and others feel it a fair reflection, I've no bones with it. I think the key to it being a lost bonus would be sea, not land trade - since the Anatolian Railway was mainly for grain exports to Istanbul AFAIK. The amount of trade it would do with Germany via Serbia/Bulgaria and Austria-Hungary doesn't seem too much. But, again, the war would cause a fair bit of instability with international trade, even if the Turks seem miraculously content thus far

[Huojin]

I think people are looking at China and seeing the high income and panicking slightly. First, I'll note I've not touched non-Great Powers in terms of rebalancing, since I think everything else looks okay. But specifically on China, it's worth noting that their military forces are paltry and tiny at this point. And that they're in control of substantially the economically beneficial regions of China. If Gesar were to increase his armed forces presently to something on the scale of Russia, he'd quickly find his income much, much lower. So I'd argue for maintaining the stats that Dr. MoO PhD wrote in that regard.

The deficit payment for Russia is a leftover from Dr. MoO PhD's stats that somehow escaped scorp, Seren, and myself. It's been fixed - but for balancing purposes, since I included that -65 in my balancing calculations, -5 has been pulled off the frankly huge Russian economy

[Master of Oblivion]

If there are no objections raised, I will use these new stats. Thanks for putting the effort in, guys.

[Master of Oblivion]

So I am thinking of adding a couple things.

1. Adding some bonuses to Latin America
Nitrate Bonus in Chile- Going to UK
Agricultural Bonus in Argentina- Going to UK

2. Coal Fueling Stations
It could just be handled by RP reasons, but coal fueling stations, especially in the pacific, might be added. Thoughts?

[Huojin]

My version already includes Chilean Nitrates and Argentinian Livestock bonuses. I'm on a phone right now though, so I can check if I remembered to write them in the NPC stats for both of them. And yes, they go to the UK.

Coal fuelling stations would be a great thing to add, though I'm not sure individual stations would be viable. Perhaps a new stat below Tech, "Coaling Rights: UK, France, Japan (New Guinea only)", where the nations listed after are those with preferential coaling rights of some kind?

Someone with greater knowledge of how the system works, please advise.

[Coin]

Quite like the idea of coaling stations, but it'd need explained in game terms I think. And we'd need to be careful not to hobble a player which is involved far abroad already unjustly, by their introduction too quickly.

I think people are looking at China and seeing the high income and panicking slightly. First, I'll note I've not touched non-Great Powers in terms of rebalancing, since I think everything else looks okay. But specifically on China, it's worth noting that their military forces are paltry and tiny at this point. And that they're in control of substantially the economically beneficial regions of China. If Gesar were to increase his armed forces presently to something on the scale of Russia, he'd quickly find his income much, much lower. So I'd argue for maintaining the stats that Dr. MoO PhD wrote in that regard.

I'm only arguing for a rebalancing - they aren't in control of Peking, Shanghai, Anhui, Shandong, and countless other areas - plus the Japs and Austrians are busy blockading away, bandits are all over the show, and cash-crop orientated exports aren't going to do great. It seems a bit imbalanced to then provide a government which is in the midst of a civil war, imperial landgrabs and warlord cliques with such a high income.

And, since I know it is difficult to argue about these things mid-game, I am not arguing for a nerfing of China at all - simply stating that the fact that cliques are in control of much of the productive area, China has mined her own rivers, and caused famines in some regions, should give more of a handicap, even if the basic strength of China (her size) should remain if she can get through it all and emerge.

[scorpion]

Coaling fuel stations is a tough sell this far in game. Unless we are allowed to retroactively place them, I don't see it being a good idea because of various events that have already occured.

Also on China, now that coin mentions it. It is odd that China can make so much considering the loss of territory along the coast, and self inflicted damages.

I'd argue that if coaling stations are implemented, Chinese stats should be adjusted even more to accurately represent the territorial loss its incurred etc.

[Tellos]

At what level of miniscule detail are we gonna go to? This is why I was worried over adjustments. Once it starts it never reaches an end.

[Master of Oblivion]

My argument for including coal stations is that they were important for early 1900's politics and they make it so the great powers care more about who owns tropical islands. I will admit that it adds some unneeded complexity, perhaps.

As far as China goes, it should probably be nerfed. Or there should be a warlord costs of some sort.

[Huojin]

I'm only arguing for a rebalancing - they aren't in control of Peking, Shanghai, Anhui, Shandong, and countless other areas - plus the Japs and Austrians are busy blockading away, bandits are all over the show, and cash-crop orientated exports aren't going to do great. It seems a bit imbalanced to then provide a government which is in the midst of a civil war, imperial landgrabs and warlord cliques with such a high income.

And, since I know it is difficult to argue about these things mid-game, I am not arguing for a nerfing of China at all - simply stating that the fact that cliques are in control of much of the productive area, China has mined her own rivers, and caused famines in some regions, should give more of a handicap, even if the basic strength of China (her size) should remain if she can get through it all and emerge.

Personally I'll leave those adjustments to Dr. MoO PhD to make, I haven't touched China's stats. Though worth noting a rebalancing would be altering the base stats, whereas I think what we're discussing for China is a change to the bonuses and maluses and so on.

Though as far as the famines and mining of rivers and such, I'd been under the impression they were confined to areas of foreign activity/occupation with the intention of depriving occupying forces of access, food, supplies, etc.

Also worth noting that during the Qing Dynasty, officials discouraged the growing of cash crops, preferring grain and foodstuffs. They produced plenty of goods that were sold in the West, but a blockade damages Western interests just as much considering the favourable trade balance they had with the outside world. Plus, y'know, that the West had to force China to trade with the outside world in the first place - they were perfectly happy being isolationist.

I'd agree there should probably be a more demonstrable cost to the warlords. Perhaps a malus for "-X lost to warlord rulers" alongside deficit and famine and the like.


@scorp: As I mentioned earlier though, people should be looking at stats as a whole picture. Half the reason yours and Seren's readjusted stats didn't work is because it tried to change things so that Income as a raw figure looked better, when there were deeper issues that needed addressing and your changes ignored the self-imposed changes that nations had taken on, like overseas entanglements. China's income is high, but their military is miniscule. If they had (as they should) an army on a similar scale to that of Russia, it would be much smaller.


And thinking about coaling stations, I'm increasingly against the idea for the reasons set out by others.

[Coin]

The warlord malus would be the easiest way of doing it, but I'd be happy as long as the situation is balanced a bit.

An additional inaccuracy! - which I presume Dr. MoO PhD knows but it just wasn't updated - the Turks have called up all of their reserves, so those 20 reserves which aren't mobilised shouldn't exist in the stats. This is one inaccuracy I can 100% confirm I am raising due to self-interest.